Conformation – Show Dogs Versus Ryman-types

Is It a Good Idea to Cross Ryman-types With Show Setters? Didn’t Ryman Do That?

If you have been around Ryman-types for any length of time you have heard it: “We cross with show dogs to improve conformation”, or “We use show dogs for structure”. “Just like George Ryman”.

So Is Crossing to a Modern Show Dog the Same as What Ryman Did? Does It Improve Conformation?

The first part of that is simple to dispense with. Ryman used combinations of early show and field lines to develop a hunting specialist type of setter. At that time the Laverack type of show setters had a strong following among hunters, and into the 1930s many of them were still good hunting dogs. Those were the show dogs of Ryman’s famous crosses. Their hunting abilities faded after the English Setter Association took control of the AKC standard in 1931 and the field oriented people in the breed abandoned shows. By the mid 1940s they had deteriorated to the point that Ryman completely eliminated further show crosses from his breeding program. He later called show dogs “…over-sized setters. Over-bred into a new type, birdless as they come, clumsy in their gate, as an ox in the field.” So suggesting that crossing with a modern show dog would duplicate Ryman’s breeding practices is naive, at best.

Whether a show cross will improve conformation is a little harder to see, but the answer is no, there is nothing to be gained by crossing to them if you are breeding Ryman-types.

It’s natural to assume that because show dogs have been bred for conformation their conformation must be superior to the field dogs, but that’s not the case. Not for hunting. Show setters have good or “correct” conformation only for what they have been bred for- winning shows.

Form Follows Function!

That’s maybe an overused old saying, but it’s an important concept because it’s true. Dogs bred for a specific function or performance must have conformation to match. Otherwise they won’t be capable of that performance. As a result, selecting for a particular performance automatically selects for conformation that enables that performance- foot hunting lines have different conformation than field trial lines, all-age trial dogs are different than cover dogs, and so on.

Ryman Conformation

To illustrate let’s start by looking at the conformation George Ryman’s setters had. These are photos Ryman used in his sales literature and stationary to represent his dogs.

There is some variation among these dogs, particularly in the heads, but their body structure is very similar. They have similar proportions and angles, short coupled bodies, relatively light bones, and strong musculature.

Below is one of the more show-like Rymans from those photos next to AKC Ch Sturdy Max, an example of show conformation during the era that Ryman was still using show dogs. Sturdy Max exemplified the bench ideals of the late 1930s.

Modern Show Setters

The video below is of the English Setter judging at the 2020 Westminster show. These are all finished champions, so a good representation of winning show conformation. Here are a few things we notice about their conformation that would impact a hunting dog’s performance.

• They look big and heavy boned.
• The bodies are long.
• The angles of the rears really stand out, especially the hocks. Compare the rears to Sturdy Max and the Ryman pictured above.
• Their movement looks awkward, heavy, and inefficient. You can see side to side and up and down motion in many of them that wastes energy because it doesn’t help propel them forward. They look like they are working harder than necessary for the speed the handlers are gaiting them at.

We have no personal experience in the show ring so we asked fellow RymanSetters.com member Lynn Dee Galey, who campaigned dual setters for 25 years, to explain what’s going on with these dogs. Here’s her answer.

“Balance between front and rear angulation is necessary for a dog to move efficiently. The trend of American show dogs to have extreme rear angulation allows the dog to be stacked with the rear looking like “tied back curtains” and ensures more slope to the topline, but the angles are not matched with the front and this impacts the physics of gait. So, when gaiting, a dog with more rear than front angle has to be gaited carefully and the front leg is extended higher or the rear feet would overstep the front. Most setters in the American show ring are shown at a deliberate pace with the lead strung up tight – this aids the dog to maintain its composure when gaiting; there is no opportunity to see the dog moving freely in a gait that would be seen while hunting. An excellent study of the relationship of conformation and gait, for anyone interested in learning, is the book Dog Steps by Rachel Page Elliot, a world recognized authority. She calls this type of imbalance with overdone rear angulation “trotting behind himself”.

“Oversized dogs are very common in many breeds for show competition as they make a bigger statement in the show ring and frankly draw more notice. The large size, long body, and heavy bone results in lumbering movement instead of being light and agile. A heavier moving dog will not have the field endurance and longevity of a more agile one; as an avid hunter I am talking day after day of hunting for years, not just a trot around the ring or an occasional 30 minute trial brace.”

Ryman-type Setter Conformation

The genuine Ryman-type breeders have dogs with conformation closer to the Rymans than to anything else. This is no coincidence. They have it for the same reason Rymans had it, because form follows function. Breeders independently end up with this type of conformation because that’s what the hunting performance dictates. It is produced by selecting for an athletic, foot-hunting setter that has endurance and can cover enough ground to find and handle wild birds.

Ryman-type Conformation in the Field

We took some video of our female Dusty to show what setters with Ryman-type conformation can do. These clips were taken at intervals throughout a hunt of about one and a half hours. Dusty is one of our fastest and widest ranging dogs, but keep in mind that dogs always look much farther away in videos than they really are. She is going out about 100 yards most of the time, although at one point she goes significantly farther to check out an interesting area. This is her natural range in the wide open, and as is typical for Ryman-types she hunts closer in grouse cover. Dusty’s conformation enables her to hunt like this for hours.

At 3:01 minutes into the video (50 minutes into the hunt) Dusty briefly goes into a trot or “gait” that can be compared with the show dogs at Westminster. Note that her back stays level and the movement looks smooth, effortless, and efficient. The energy she expends propels her straight ahead without any wasted up and down or side to side motion.

As an aside unrelated to conformation, at 6:20 Dusty demonstrates some necessary tactics for handling wild birds that breeders who are knowledgeable about hunting dogs will recognize. She pauses and then works her way up a little draw. When she doesn’t locate birds she circles back to get downwind from where she first stopped, and then searches another draw farther away. Fresh Hun droppings in the area confirmed why Dusty did this, but unfortunately the birds were already gone. After she is satisfied there are no birds she resumes hunting at her faster pace.

The Bottom Line

Today’s show conformation is drastically different than the conformation of the Rymans and Ryman-types. Experienced hunter-breeders understand what is required for their dogs to perform in the field and recognize that show dogs’ conformation is actually inferior for a hunting dog. Those who use them either lack that experience and knowledge, or they prioritize something other than hunting and are willing to accept the negative impact on their dogs’ athleticism and endurance.

Cliff and Lisa